Maternal Wealth Podcast - Own Your Birth
The Maternal Wealth Podcast creates a collective space for sharing all birth-related stories. I want to acknowledge birth's uniqueness, honor its variations, and remind us of the power we hold in giving birth.
As a Labor and Delivery Nurse, I see the impact of our stories. Let's share those stories with those who come after us to prepare them for what's to come. For those who came before us, allowing them to reminisce and heal as we realize we were not alone in our experiences.
Maternal Wealth is currently streaming in twenty-five countries: New Zealand, Australia, Slovakia, Canada, Finland, South Africa, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Rwanda, Poland, India, Sweden, Germany, Puerto Rico, China, Italy, Denmark, Brazil, Indonesia, Vietnam, Spain, Greenland, Cyprus, Tanzania and the United States.
Maternal Wealth Podcast - Own Your Birth
When Motherhood Meets Innovation: Empowering Women Through Beautiful Postpartum Products
Courtney Boylan never imagined that her frustration with constantly losing clear nipple shields during late-night feedings would spark a business revolution in maternal products. But that's exactly how Le Lolo was born – from one mother's determination to bring beauty and dignity to the postpartum experience.
When Courtney transitioned from Target executive to a new mother, she found herself struggling with the realities of postpartum life. Unlike the instant maternal bond she'd expected, her connection with her newborn son developed gradually – something many mothers experience but few discuss openly. As she navigated breastfeeding challenges, she became increasingly frustrated with the clinical, sterile appearance of maternal products that made her feel like she was using medical equipment rather than nurturing her child.
The breaking point came during those sleepless nights searching for clear nipple shields lost in bedding and couch cushions. "I can't be the only mom losing my nipple shield all day and all night," she remembers thinking. This lightbulb moment led her to envision not just colored shields for practicality but beautiful maternal products that would remind women of their strength and worth during a vulnerable time.
Building Le Lolo while raising two young children required tremendous sacrifice. Courtney returned to work at Amazon, commuting two hours daily for a year, saving every penny while her husband managed their home life. During those long drives, she developed her business plan, connected with manufacturers, and gradually overcame the anxiety and self-doubt during early motherhood. "I had to retrain my brain to start believing in myself again," she shares with remarkable candor.
Since launching on Mother's Day 2023, Le Lolo has revolutionized breastfeeding accessories with innovations like silicone stickers that secure nipple shields during feeding. With sixteen new products launching soon, Courtney continues her mission of making mothers feel beautiful during their breastfeeding journey. Her message to other entrepreneurial moms? "If you don't go for it, you're always going to wonder 'what if.' Take the leap – it's worth it in the end."
Ready to discover products that celebrate the beauty of motherhood? Visit wearelelolo.com or follow @wearelelolo on Instagram and join the movement transforming maternal products from clinical to beautiful.
Use our exclusive Coupon Code, MaternalWealth, for 10% off your purchase.
Music Credit
https://uppbeat.io/t/infraction/infrared
https://uppbeat.io/t/nick-petrov/always-innovating
https://uppbeat.io/t/konstantin-garbuzyuk/weekend-livin
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Welcome to the Maternal Wealth Podcast, a space for all things related to maternal health, pregnancy and beyond. I'm your host, stephanie Terrio. I'm a labor and delivery nurse and a mother to three beautiful boys. Each week, we dive into inspiring stories and expert insights to remind us of the power that you hold in childbirth and motherhood. We're here to explore the joys, the challenges and the complexities of maternal health. Every mother's journey is unique and every story deserves to be told. Please note that this podcast is for entertainment purposes only. It is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always consult with your healthcare provider for medical guidance that is tailored to your specific needs. Are you ready? Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Maternal Wealth Podcast.
Speaker 1:Through many individuals I've met via this podcast, through the woman I've met at bedside as a labor nurse and, lastly, through my own personal experience, I've come to realize that the journey of conception, labor, birth and motherhood can transform us in so many unique ways. Today we have Courtney Boylan. You created your business, le Lolo, because of your story and your journey into motherhood. I truly love the message on your site. We are beautiful, we are strong. We are beautiful, we are strong, we are extraordinary. We are mothers. Yes, yes and yes, I love it. I'm so glad that you're here with us today. I'm excited to hear about your personal journey into motherhood and the creation of your business, leilolo, and how Leilolo's products help empower and make mothers feel beautiful. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, stephanie. When you said our phrase that we are beautiful, we are stronger, extraordinary, we are mothers, you gave me goosebumps. Hearing someone say it really resonated again with me and it just is so powerful.
Speaker 1:It is so true. When you've gone through that experience, the transition and labor and motherhood you feel it. It's, it's real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's. You know a feeling like no other and can't understand it, no matter what anyone tells you, until you experience it for yourself. And yeah, it's just, it's. It's wild, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It truly is. I love for you to share a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Before I became a mom, I was a workaholic, to be honest. I was a store director for Target. I worked really long hours and I did it to keep myself busy. I always wanted to be a mom and I always wanted to have a baby, but I didn't really understand what that meant until I actually had one. So I met my husband, actually working at Target. He was also a store director and we were peers and once I met him it was like love at first sight and kind of. The rest is history.
Speaker 1:I love it when couples meet at work. That's the best.
Speaker 2:You know you spend so much time at work. It's like I understand, I was like I always said I'm never going to meet my significant other at work. And then it's like you spent so much time there and it's like, okay, well, you know, that's just kind of how it ended up, so you have three kids.
Speaker 1:Tell us a little bit about when you found out you were pregnant and how that went for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I have three kids. My stepdaughter is nine years old, my son is five and then my littlest is three. So when we got married my stepdaughter was four and we knew right away that we wanted her to have a sibling as soon as we could. So we tried to get pregnant pretty much right away was kind of our goal.
Speaker 2:I did struggle with a miscarriage. I had a miscarriage when I first got pregnant. I actually didn't know I was pregnant until I miscarried, which I felt like was kind of a good thing because I wasn't really attached to the baby at that point. But it was still of a good thing because I wasn't really attached to the baby at that point. But it was still tough to know that my body didn't take the baby and that was kind of a letdown for me. But when I found out I was pregnant with my son, we were so excited and I literally I cannot keep a secret. So I took a pregnancy test when I got home from work and the minute I saw that it was positive I called my husband. I wanted to do like some cute surprise and you know, do a thing and make a video, but I just I couldn't hold it in, so I call him right away.
Speaker 1:How was your pregnancy for you?
Speaker 2:With my son. It was actually pretty, pretty easy. I was a bit tired but I wasn't nauseous. I didn't really feel any sickness or or have any of those aches and pains that you hear about through pregnancy. I definitely wasn't comfortable at the end, once he was about to come, but overall it was a pretty smooth pregnancy Probably the only thing for me being pregnant. I didn't really enjoy it either time that I was pregnant and you know I think it's beautiful when a mom enjoys that piece but for me that just it was tough to see my body go through those changes and you know my hormones were going crazy and it was just hard for me. So I was happy when it was over and I think I struggled the most as I entered into postpartum. That was the toughest part for me, for sure.
Speaker 1:Talk a little bit more about the struggle into postpartum. What specifically was hard for you?
Speaker 2:I just remember when I had my son, when he came out I didn't know how to feel about holding him or I didn't know. I knew like I was supposed to be happy and I was supposed to feel this love for my baby. But it felt so weird to me to be holding this baby that I was meeting for the first time in the world. Obviously I had carried him but I almost like put too much pressure on myself to love him and to feel this certain way and when I didn't feel that, I kind of got down on myself and of course that came and that that love built over time. But I think when he first came out and I didn't feel that immediate connection and bond with him, it was really hard for me.
Speaker 2:And I just remember when we were supposed to leave the hospital, I didn't want to leave, I wanted to stay there because I was so scared to take him home and care for him, because I had no idea what I was doing. And I just remember getting in the car with him and I just broke down and I was bawling my eyes out and I was like I'm so scared, I don't want to leave. I just I didn't know how to handle those feelings of now having to care for another human and not having any idea what I was supposed to do to keep him alive. So I was actually extremely grateful that my husband had been through it before with his daughter and he had some experience bringing a new baby home, because I just think it's such a crazy. Obviously I comprehend and I understand that you know it's your baby, so you leave, but there's no manual on how to take care of a baby. They don't tell you what to do, you just kind of have to figure it out on your own, and that was really scary for me.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you bringing this up, because I think that this is something that we as women don't collectively discuss frequently enough. Sometimes, when we birth our children, that bond, those fireworks, aren't immediately there. It takes time and it happens, and I have patients who talk to me about that too, who are like I don't feel the bond and I'm worried. This is a natural process that some of us go through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. And it grows over time and you get more comfortable. The saying a mother's intuition and instincts, like that is a real thing. You just figure it out and you learn and you, you just grow and you do start to build that confidence in yourself as a mom and realize that, okay, I can do this, like I do know how to care for my baby, I know what that, I know what my needs and and I'm the person that can give it to him. So it was just such an odd feeling for me, but I do think it's important to talk about because you know it's there's a lot of there's a lot of beauty talk that goes into becoming a new mom, and we need to talk about the realities of becoming a new mom as well, for for people who haven't been through before, so we can educate and let them know that you know it's not always sunshine and rainbows.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely great care. That's why we created a maternal health care provider database. Maternal health providers can easily create profiles to promote their services and business, helping to increase access for those seeking their care. This is a one-of-a-kind database that offers a new and exciting way for women to search for and find maternal health providers near them and tailored to their specific needs. Profiles feature badges that highlight various services, such as tollback-friendly practices, all-female practices, lgbtqai plus inclusivity, language options, access to vaginal breach services and more and more. How was your delivery? You were in the hospital, did?
Speaker 2:you have an OB? Did you have a midwife, a vaginal delivery, a C-section? I had an OB and I was induced in both of my deliveries. My son was just super comfortable in there. He did not want to come out and so I was induced at 41 weeks with him and then with my daughter I was induced at, I believe, 40 weeks, which I enjoyed being induced because I knew it was coming. I think I have like a little bit of a control thing and I knew exactly what day it was coming, so I didn't have a problem with being in.
Speaker 1:For your first, the induction.
Speaker 2:How long was it? You went in on what day? And then he was born on what day, yeah. So I went in at like they had me come in at like midnight, which I thought was so odd, but I went in at like midnight and then he was there by 8am the next morning. So it was pretty quick and with my daughter it was really quick. Also, I do have to say like I was very lucky to have very smooth deliveries with both of them. They were both quick, they were both smooth from the minute I went in. So I that was not a traumatic, a traumatic thing for me whatsoever, which I know can be for a lot of moms. So I feel very grateful in that piece of my delivery.
Speaker 1:Did you have any tearing or were you intact?
Speaker 2:I did have a little bit of tearing with my son, but with my daughter I didn't have any, which I thought was so crazy to me. I was walking the neighborhood the next day after having her and one of my neighbors saw me and she was like what are you doing? Didn't you just have a baby? And I was like I feel so great, like I'm just out here walking the streets I know I just popped a baby out.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I know how much did they weigh? My son was six pounds 15 ounces, and then my daughter was seven pounds three ounces, I think, so they weren't too terribly big.
Speaker 1:No, nice and healthy. Healthy babies, healthy babies. You decided to breastfeed bottle feed.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I decided to breastfeed and I knew I wanted to breastfeed my babies and this is kind of where my company Lay Lolo kind of started. So I will never forget, with my son, my first birth. I was in the hospital and my milk was coming in and my boobs were just, oh my gosh, they hurt so bad because they were so full. And the lactation consultant came in and she was trying to position the baby it's like they were like so full he couldn't get a good latch and his latch didn't hurt, but my boobs hurt because they were so engorged and moved his head and, like, stuck him on my boob to feed and it was fine and dandy, but I couldn't do it on my own. And so I remember coming home and I was just in so much pain because of the engorgement and I called my sister and I was just crying and she was like she was like you need to pump. She's like you need to pump, you need to get the milk out, just so that you feel some relief. And I was like, but the lactation consultant said, don't pump because it's going to ruin my milk supply and my milk supply is going to go crazy. She's like Courtney, you have to do what's best for you, like, don't listen to what someone else says, make the decision for yourself and do what's going to be best for you, to make you feel comfortable as well as for the baby. I couldn't even feed because I was in so much pain and so I pumped and I immediately I felt relief, and the lactation consultant had also told me not to use a nipple shield because it would mess with the baby's latch. Well, my sister was a big fan of nipple shields and she's like use a nipple shield also. It'll help her with the latch just for the first couple of days. You don't necessarily need one after that if you don't feel like you do, but it will help the baby just learn how to feed and if you want to use it after that, go for it, if you don't, don't use it.
Speaker 2:So I used a nipple shield and I didn't have inverted nipples. I you know my baby didn't have a tongue tie. They didn't have any of those reasons that you typically would use a nipple shield for. I just needed help with the baby sucking and then also relief from the pain from breastfeeding because my nipples were so sore, getting used to that sucking motion all the time. And so I used the nipple shield and it was so helpful for me, it was so, so helpful.
Speaker 2:But the nipple shields are clear and I would lose it all the time. Like it would get stuck in the couch, it would get stuck in the blanket in the middle of the night, it would fall under the bed. I'd have to turn the lights on. I could never find the thing and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. Like I need a colored nipple shield. And so I went to Google. I searched for colored nipple shield. There was nothing there and I was like this are you like I can't be the only mom losing my nipple shield all day and all night? Like where are the colored nipple shields?
Speaker 2:And I've always had, you know, an entrepreneurial spirit and like I always am like, okay, I'm going to make this thing. I come up with a new idea and I was like this would be so much better, so much easier for everyone if we had this or that. And I always tell my husband all these crazy ideas, shield. And of course I didn't do it. And then I had my daughter and then I went through the same thing I needed a colored nipple shield. There still wasn't one out there, and so, after I had my daughter, I decided you know what I'm going to do it I'm going to make the nipple shield and I can make it beautiful for moms also.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of getting off track here, but as I was also using the nipple shield with my son, I realized that all the other products that I was using are so stale and sterile and they feel so medical grade and they're not pretty.
Speaker 2:And as you're transitioning through postpartum, which it can be a very tough time in a mom's life, she deserves to feel beautiful and she deserves to feel worthy and she should enjoy the products that she has to use during this time of her life. And I thought well, what if I can make all of these products that a new mom uses beautiful? And that's kind of where my idea sparked to create Lay Lolo. So it started with a nipple shield and then this spring we're going to be adding 16 new accessories, all related to breastfeeding for this first time, and they're all beautiful. They have beautiful colors, beautiful shapes, and I just want every mom who uses our accessories to be reminded of her beauty and her strength, and I just hope that when she sees the accessories she's using she's just reminded of those things and how worthy she is.
Speaker 1:I love the concept behind Le Lolo in bringing back the beauty of the postpartum period and thinking about the nipple shields that are on the market right now that are so sterile, and, in my role as a labor and delivery nurse, and when a patient does want or need to use the nipple shield that already exists, it does feel sterile and it almost feels like her body isn't working. So now we have to add something like a medical instrument make her body work, as opposed to your product with Lelolo, it's beautiful, it's cute. You're bringing something in that decreases the stress, that feels natural, that feels beautiful, it's cute. You're bringing something in that decreases the stress, that feels natural, that feels beautiful, and I think that will only help women in producing more milk and having the bond with their child.
Speaker 2:Totally. I love how you said that, yes, you're using this piece of equipment when you feel like your body's not working, when you're using accessories that make you feel good. Also, I remember when people would come over to my house, I would always hide all of my breastfeeding things because they're just so ugly and I didn't want anyone to see them. And I don't ever want a mom to feel like she has to hide her accessories because she's feeding her child or because they're not pretty, or because someone might I don't even know that. Judge is the word but she shouldn't have to hide those things and if it's pretty, maybe she will enjoy leaving them out when her family comes over to see the baby.
Speaker 1:When you first start breastfeeding and you put the baby on so much of the production of milk and producing the hormones, and the letdown is about the bond. So you can't be stressed, you can't be worried, you just have to enjoy and relax, and I think that's what your products are going to help women do.
Speaker 2:Thank you. That is my dream. If I can help just one mom feel a little more joy in her journey through postpartum, then my job is done. I want every mom just to remember how worthy and beautiful she is. And you know, every mom is made specifically for their baby. That will never change, you know you. You only ever have one mom and there's nothing better than a mom's love. So I just want every, every new mom to remember that.
Speaker 1:Starting a business with two little children. Talk us through that. How did you manage being a mom?
Speaker 2:with two little kids and then starting Le Lolo. Oh man, yes, it was pretty crazy. I have to give most of my credit to my husband. He is amazing, and I was always so scared to take the leap.
Speaker 2:I was a stay-at-home mom when I had my son. I left my job at Target and I decided to stay home with him, which I never thought. I was a stay-at-home mom when I had my son. I left my job at Target and I decided to stay home with him, which I never thought I was going to do. But I'm so glad and grateful that that opportunity was given to me and that I was able to do that with him. But I knew from, being a stay-at-home mom is so, so hard. Shout out to all the stay-at-home moms out there If there that is, that is literally the hardest job in the world.
Speaker 2:I was just going a little crazy, though, so I needed, I needed to go back to work, and I know I needed to do something, and so my husband was like you know what? You should start this business. You should, you should go for it. Like we will figure it out, you should do this. And I was like, okay, so I went back to work, Actually I. So I went back to work Actually, I went back to work for Amazon and I went for one year and we decided that we were going to save every single penny of the money that I made and we were going to save it to fund Lay Lolo.
Speaker 2:So for a year I got up at 4am, I drove an hour to work and I drove an hour home. I would just on my way to work and on my way home I would daydream about what Lay Lolo was. I would take notes like voice notes in my phone about what I wanted it to be. And I just amped myself up honestly on these drives and built this vision of what I wanted this company to be.
Speaker 2:And my precious husband is just so amazing. He would take the kids to school, he would pick them up, he was like a stay at home dad, but he was also working full time while I was working at Amazon, trying to save this money so that we could start this business. And on my drives I hired a designer. I found a manufacturer in China to manufacture my goods and I just used that year of driving honestly to build a Lolo and to get my product ready and to launch it and it was probably one of the hardest years because I had to sacrifice the time with my kids to be able to set us up for success from a money standpoint in order to launch the business. But I wouldn't change that year or anything and I'm grateful. I'm definitely grateful it's behind us, but it was a great learning year as well for me and a great year of growth.
Speaker 1:I love how women, we manage so many things to be able to do what needs to be done, and I love how, in your story, you're a mom, you're working, you have your children, you have your partner and you're getting it all done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I mean, I think when you're a mom, when you become a mom, this drive kicks in you because you just want to make your kids proud. Kicks in you because you just want to make your kids proud and, to be honest, if I didn't have like, my kids are really my driving force behind this company. Obviously, I would never have had this idea without them, but I just want to build something to make them proud and to show them that if there's something that you want to do and you believe you can do it, if you put your mind to it you can. And when I was a stay at home mom, I created I think it was myself a lot of anxieties in my own head and started believing and telling myself that I wasn't good enough and that I you know, I could never do something like this.
Speaker 2:It was like I was scaring myself into not believing in myself and I had to retrain my brain to start believing in myself again and telling myself that I could do it. I had so much anxiety that I wouldn't post on a Facebook group asking I will never forget this. I wanted to know a good gym to go to that had like a baby daycare and I had so much anxiety just posting on Facebook, like on a Facebook group, about that which now seems so crazy. But that's how high my anxiety was, because I didn't want to put myself out there and I had to retrain my brain and like believe in myself again that I could do this.
Speaker 1:You launched Le Lolo Mother's Day of 2024.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So you're almost a year in Congratulations. That's awesome. How has the last year been for you?
Speaker 2:It has been quite a ride. I honestly didn't think that it would be so hard. That's very naive of me to think that. But building a business and not having any background is really tough and I've learned so much. I've grown so much. I've been very stressed also, but I think it's because I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed. But I wouldn't change it for the world. Every day I learn something new. Every day I meet someone new who helps me in my journey and I just feel so grateful that I get to be on this journey. And you know, I always say like I wanted to create something, not just for myself, but something that would better other people, and I'm so passionate about this company and the fact that it is going to help every mom in the future. That means a lot to me.
Speaker 1:How has the feedback been for moms who are using your product?
Speaker 2:We've had amazing feedback. We've had a great community of IBCLCs who have backed our product and have shared with their communities our nipple shields. It's just been so amazing, you know. They are so impressed by the quality of the shield compared to our competitors and especially with our nipple shield sticker that we created that helps secure latch. And we've just had amazing feedback and we're so excited because we're about to launch our 16 new accessories within the next couple of months and I just I can't wait to see where we go and how we continue to grow.
Speaker 1:Tell us a little bit more about the patch for the nipple shield. From my understanding the competitors, they don't have a patch for the shield.
Speaker 2:Correct. So while I was creating the nipple shield, I was doing a little bit of research and the one thing that mom said about using a nipple shield is that it would always fall off. The main concern was if it wasn't working for them. The reason it wasn't working is because it was falling off. So I thought, well, why can't? Like I should create like a sticker for it, because, it's true, like if it doesn't, if it doesn't have the perfect suction to your skin, then it's going to fall off, or babies moving around they knock the shield off.
Speaker 2:It's just tough to stay in place. So I created it's a piece of silicone and it has think of like those sticky bras If you've ever used one that you put in your bra that it's strapless and it has that sticky silicone on it. Basically that's what our sticker is, and it's double sided stick, so it sticks to the shield and then it sticks to your skin and when you use it you can actually put your shield on first and then place baby onto the shield, rather than having to hold the shield and then put the baby on and make sure that it's lashed. It really just makes sure that the shield stays in place, no matter where the baby is or how the baby's moving.
Speaker 1:For women who may find themselves in a similar position as you. They have an idea that's been brewing and they have two little kids at home. What advice would you give to them to take that leap to start their business?
Speaker 2:Go for it. Like you, if you don't go for it, you're always going to wonder what. If so, take the leap. It's going to be worth it in the end and you will be so thankful you did. And if you need some more encouragement, email me because we can talk through it and I would love to help them, because I just want every woman to feel empowered and chase her dreams, because it's so worth it in the end and you not only you will thank yourself, but your kids will thank you also.
Speaker 1:I love that you're creating a space for women to feel beautiful in their breastfeeding journey space for women to feel beautiful in their breastfeeding journey. Honestly, I wish that my patients had access to these products. In the hospital, there's so much sterilization you feel like a patient. The products that are being used in the hospital today don't really set moms up to feel beautiful and to be 100% successful in their breastfeeding journey that they want to have. I hope in the future, that your products can be found more accessibly in the hospital system. I think that would be amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, stephanie. Talk about a dream. That would be incredible. I would love that more than anything, and I don't think that any dream can't be achieved, so I hope one day that that is the case don't think that any dream can't be achieved, so I hope one day that that is the case.
Speaker 1:We talk about the transition. We talk about becoming moms in the postpartum journey is intense and anything that we can do to help women succeed in their breastfeeding journey, feeling beautiful, feeling empowered. Together. We're in this journey to help other women. I'm so glad that you took the time to sit and chat with me today and to share your story and to share your products and your growth and your business. Leilolo, if anyone who is listening, who wants to find your products, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:Okay, so we are at wwwweareleilolocom, that's L-E-L-O-L-O, and then we are also on Instagram at weareleilolo.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and your beautiful family, and I'm excited to see where you are in the next year and your new products that are going to be coming out.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Stephanie. I had such a great time. I really appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 1:We need your help by making a donation, you'll be supporting us and bringing you even more great content. I truly believe creating this space for women all across the globe to share their story will allow us to collectively heal, grow and become more empowered in the space that we deserve to be. Motherhood, womanhood and however that looks and feels for each and every one of us, every contribution, big or small, will make a huge difference. If you can head over to support us today, there's a link in the bio to support the podcast. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for being a part of this journey. Thank you for listening. Be sure to check out our social media. All links are provided in the episode description. We're excited to have you here. Please give us a follow. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the show, reach out to us via email. Thank you, bye. Thank you, bye. Thank you, oh, yeah.